基思·韦伯斯特：消除障碍 学会创造（图）

基思·韦伯斯特：消除障碍 学会创造

Keith Webster：Reduce Barriers，Learn to Create New Things

采访时间：2016年11月21日

初稿时间：2017年3月24日

定稿时间：2017年4月1日

采访地点：广州市图书馆

版本：文字版

口语翻译：张昱

文字翻译：赵启玥

审校：刘锦山

第7届信息技术与教育国际学术研讨会（ITIE2016）于2016年11月17日至24日在中国召开。2016年11月21日上午，在广州图书馆，我们非常高兴地邀请到美国卡耐基梅隆大学图书馆馆长基思?韦伯斯特先生接受我们的采访。

ITIE2016 Conference was held in China on 17-24 November. Mr. Keith Webster was appointed Dean of University Libraries at Carnegie Mellon in July 2013. On the morning of November 21, 2016, it was an honor for us to interview Keith Webster in Guangzhou Library during ITIE 2016Guangzhou.

一、关于创客空间

1.About makerspace

刘锦山：基思先生您好，非常感谢您能接受我们的采访。

Jinshan Liu: Hello，Mr. Keith Webster. Thank you for accepting my interview.

Keith Webster: It's my pleasure.

基思·韦伯斯特：我很荣幸。

刘锦山：首先谈谈您关于创客空间的主要观点和思想。

Jinshan Liu: Firstly, I would like to know what you think of makerspace.

Keith Webster: I think it is a place where people can express their thinking and their ideas in new forms, for example, they can physical objects or digital products. Makerspaces in public libraries support all ages of people from young children to people who will start to business. Universities libraries are very focus on providing makerspaces to support students and their degree study. In United States, we recognize that our students enroll in the university and work on big challenges in society. We find a fact education coaching including makerspace give them skills of working that people from different fields would be successful when they are enter their career. We find making is a collaborative process, which bring together students from different disciplines, and that collaboration understanding of different disciplines of problems give their students very special skill on they graduate.

基思·韦伯斯特：我认为创客空间是一个人们可以通过许多新方式交流思想和观点的地方，例如，人们在这里可以创造实物，也可以创造数字产品。公共图书馆的创客空间面向各个年龄段的人群，有小孩，也有即将创业的人士。大学图书馆也很重视创客空间，他们为学生的学习和学位的获得提供支持。在美国，我们意识到我们的学生在入学和工作都面临巨大的挑战。我们发现包括创客空间在内的教育辅导为学生提供了工作技能，当他们进入各行各业中，可以利用这些技能获得成功。我们认为创客空间里的活动都是一些合作性的活动，不同系科的学生在此参与，学生在这样的合作环境中了解到不同学科的知识，有助于他们在毕业时习得很多特殊的技能。

刘锦山：基思先生曾经在澳大利亚、新西兰、英国等多所大学的图书馆供职，我们知道，大学一般强调学术性和研究性，公共图书馆似乎对学术性不是很强调，那么大学图书馆和公共图书馆这两种类型的图书馆在开展创客运动时有什么不同？

Jinshan Liu: I know libraries of universities normally focus on academic research, but public libraries would not seemly emphasize research. Could you present differences between universities’ libraries and public libraries for promoting maker movement as you had held library dean and director roles at major research universities in Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom.

Keith Webster: I think one of big differences is in the complexity of the maker equipment, and in public providers they want to be and should be open to everyone who will use these facilities. They need to have low entry barrier, so we can not have machines that require a lot of training to use. In university, we can offer access to more complex but also more dangerous equipments. Our students have to spend time learning how to use these machines safely before we can allow them to work. We couldn’t allow anyone to use machines that have complexity, once we find students still be difficult to use machines after training. That is I think the big difference between academic libraries and public libraries.

基思·韦伯斯特：我认为最大的不同在于创客空间设备的复杂性方面。公共图书馆的创客空间面向每一位可能使用这些设备的人士，因此设备都是一些入门级的，大众不需要经过培训就可使用这些设备。大学图书馆创客空间中设备往往是比较复杂而且还有危险，学生们在使用设备之前必须学习如何安全的使用。一旦我们发现学生经过培训之后仍然不能很好的操作这些设备，那么我们不允许他们使用复杂的设备。这就是我认为的最大不同之处。

But I think one thing of what we all have a common is that we are trend to understand the future of library and to understand what needs to big enough to our lives to makerspace. Do we give up collection books? Do we try to reduce public seating or find different ways move forward. All facts require us to talk our communities to understand their needs for library in the future when they are in public libraries and academic libraries.

但是，我认为这两者之间还有一个共同处，那就是都在研究图书馆的未来发展，研究创建创客空间的需求有多大。我们需要减少馆藏吗？我们要不要减少公共座椅，要不要采用其他的不同方式来发展？所有的情况都需要我们要与我们的社区来对话，知道他们以后进入公共图书馆或是高校图书馆最想要的什么？

Some people believe that makerspace should not be a library. I disagree with it. For two reasons, one is that makerspace with 3D priter and several machines is a palce expressing knowledge and one’s creation, and it is just as libraries always provided all access to knowledge and creation though reading and writing. Secondly, libraries have always be a neutral space where people can access to all resources that too expensive to have in any private location and provide community access with maker facilities. We reduce barriers to people learning how to make, which we know it would be tremendously important in 21century.

有人认为创客空间不是一个图书馆。我不这样认为，原因有两个。第一，创客空间里有3D打印机和其他的机器设备，是一个知识交流、创新交流的地方，它就像是一座图书馆，因为图书馆为人们提供图书资料，便于人们获取知识和创新。第二，我认为图书馆一向是一个包容中立的空间。人们在这里可以获取一些非常昂贵但其他地方都没有的资源，还可以使用创客空间中的设备。我们减少了人们在创新创造中遇到的一些障碍，我们也知道创客空间在21世纪意义重大。

二、创客空间与实验室

2. Makerspace vs Laboratory

刘锦山：您刚才谈到，大学图书馆有一些复杂的、昂贵的设别，我们知道好多大学的院系也有自己的实验室，有自己的实验设备。我想了解大学图书馆的创客空间和院系实验室有什么关系？

Jinshan Liu: You have just talked about libraries have complex and expensive equipments, but I know that in some of departments in universities they also have laboratories like makerspaces and have complex equipments in laboratories. Could you tell us something about relationship between a makerspace of university’s library and a department’s laboratory?

Keith Webster: Sure. I think there are two differences. Firstly, I think library is independent of any disciplines, and we can offer space in which people can work with colleagues from other fields. For example, we can have art students and engineering students work together in the makerspace of library. If a makerspace was in engineering college, the art student might not feel at the home. If a makerspace was in art school, engineering students might feel uncomfortable. So we provide a neutral space.

基思·韦伯斯特：当然了。我认为有两个不同之处。第一，我认为图书馆是独立于任何系科以外的，我们可以为人们提供空间，人们在这里与其他领域的人士合作共事。比如，艺术系的学生和工程系的学生在图书馆创客空间里可以开展合作。如果一个创客空间仅仅是为工程系学生而服务的，那么艺术系的学生在这里会没有归属感。如果一个创客空间是专为艺术院系而服务的，那么工程系的学生也会感到不舒服。因此，我们提供的是一个中立的空间。

Secondly, in a department’s makerspace, let’ see the engineering college, they provide access to very special latest and very expensive maker facilities. We can provide access to entry-level equipments for people can learn and offer them making journey .The important thing for us is to work in partnership with colleagues and to understand how we can path way for people to grow their expert teams using proper facilities.

第二，我们讲讲学校院系的创客空间，就以工程院系为例，他们往往会提供一些最新的而且非常昂贵的设备。而我们提供的设备往往是入门级的，便于人们使用，为人们创造一个亲自动手制造、创新的体验。对我们来说，最重要的是与同事合作，要了解我们应该提供一个什么渠道来帮助人们通过使用合适的设备来凝聚他们的团队。

刘锦山：上午我采访了中国图书馆学会的副理事长，原上海图书馆的馆长吴建中先生。他认为创客运动的兴起是由于近十多年来虚拟经济发展的缺陷和不足，所有大家重新开始注重实际经济，重视制造业，兴起了创客运动。这么多年来，美国兴起了许多创客运动。美国总统奥巴马强调制造业要回归美国。我想要了解的是，美国的创客运动、创客空间与企业的结合情况是怎样的？

Jinshan Liu: This morning I interviewed Mr. Jianzhong Wu, Vice Chairperson of Library Society of China and former Director of Shanghai Library. He thinks the main reason of emerging maker movements is defects in current virtual economy development, so real economy and manufacturing is being refocused, and maker movements spring up in global. Over the years, maker movements have sprang up in United States. President Obama emphasizes that manufacturing is going to come back to the United States, so I would like to know a little bit from you about relationship of maker movements, makerspaces and enterprises.

Keith Webster: I think one of big opportunities with the maker economy is that the cost of entry is very low. If I have an idea that I wish to determine to business, I can go to a library or to Techshop and make something and then to sale them. In the pre-maker economy, I would have to build a small factory, buy lots of machines, and because cost entry was much higher. I think President Obama has recognized the importance of the maker economy, not just in United States, but to many countries. Because it allows people to apply skills in the new way .That allow them to jobs and to generate income that were impossible for elder generations. He was in our campus about four weeks ago and talked about our makers and told us the important thing for us is creativity and find how we are contribute in the maker economy. He hopes that libraries play important play and give young people skills and push them to make things.

基思·韦伯斯特：我认为创客经济是一种资金投入成本较低的经济。如果我想经商，我可以去图书馆或创客空间TechShop制造一些东西，然后去销售。在创客经济未到来之前，我不得不建一个小工厂，买一些机器设备，成本投入很高。我认为奥巴马总统也意识到了创客经济的重要性，这不仅仅体现在美国，而且许多国家都有这样的认识。因为它允许人们采用新的方式去运用技能，允许人们创造就业机会和创收，这些都是老一辈人不可能做到的。大约四周前，奥巴马总统来到我们学校，谈到了我们的创客们，告诉我们创造力是最重要的，要在创客经济的时代背景下做出贡献。他希望图书馆可以发挥重要作用，让年轻人学到技能，鼓励他们创造一些东西。

三、卡耐基梅隆大学图书馆的创客空间

3. Makerspace in Carnegie Mellon University Libraries

刘锦山：请您介绍一下卡耐基梅隆大学图书馆创客空间的情况。

Jinshan Liu: Could you briefly introduce your library’s makerspace in Carnegie Mellon University?

Keith Webster: Yes, we opened our makerspace in 2014, and it has been designed primarily to be used by students on inter-discipline undergraduate program. We have about 5000 undergraduate students. There are about 800 students frequently use program. We have d 5 makerlabs .One of them is a shop where people can work with CNC routers and millers to make primarily wooden objects. We then have a digital fabrication lab with laser-cutting machine. We have 3D printer lab with a variety of machines working different types of materials. We have a digital production studio where people can work with radio and sound. We have physical computing lab where all students take a course where they learn how to match physical objects to computer controllers like that robots. We have two studios where people can collaborate and work together in groups.

基思·韦伯斯特：2014年，我们开展创客空间，专为各个学科的本科生而设计。我们的本科生大约5000名，其中800名学生频繁使用创客空间。我们创建了5个创客实验室。我们有一个实验室配备了电脑数控槽刨、电脑数控铣床，供人们制作木制品；有一个配备了激光切割机的数字制造实验室；有一个3D打印实验室，而且不同材质配备不同的机器；有一个数码产品工作室，人们在这里可以使用收音机和音响设备；有一个计算物理实验室，学生们在这里可以选择一个方向，学习如何把实物与电脑控制器（如机器人）相匹配；我们还有两个工作室，人们在这里相互合作。

I can say our facilities are primarily for students on the program, but we can offer courses for other students who simply want to learn how to use making machines. We also offer opportunity for people to work alongside various students, for example, students will 3D object, so that the process using facilities doesn’t have to learn how machines work.

我想指出的是，我们的设备是为开展项目的学生而服务的，但是我们也会为想要学习如何使用创客空间中的机器的其他学生提供培训。我们还为人们提供了与学生合作完成项目的机会，比如学生们将要创造三维物体，人们使用设备也无需一定要了解机器的工作原理。

刘锦山：贵馆的创客空间是2014年开放的，到现在经过两年的时间，运行的效果怎么样，学生参加活动的人数、频次、持续性怎么样？

Jinshan Liu: The makerspace in your library have been opened in 2014, so could you talk about the operation effect of the makerspace from 2014 to 2016, including the number of students participating in activities, the frequency of students participating?

Keith Webster: It is very busy. Our libraries are open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The spaces are used continuously. What we have learned is that we have not success with very cheap equipment. Because they did not the latest and broken quickly. We have to buy more expensive machines to cope serious matter of using. We bought some very expensive 3D printers. We have learned that the space have become a place where students gather from different disciplines. It’s really one part of university where we see engineers and artists, computer scientists and business students come together. We now had the first students graduate from the program. Many have told us that has been the most important part in their experience as students in Carnegie Mellon. It gives them skills and opportunities，otherwise they would never have been able to enjoy.

基思·韦伯斯特：非常繁忙。我们图书馆一周七天每天24小时开放，学生们也频繁地使用创客空间。我们总结的经验是，如果配置的设备价格比较低廉，那么会影响创客空间的效能。因为机器不是最新的，设备损坏的速度较快。所以我们不得不购买较为昂贵的设备来解决这个问题。我们购买了非常昂贵的3D打印机。同时，我们清楚创客空间是一个各个学科的学生汇聚的地方。它是大学缩影，在这里我们可以看到工程师、艺术家、计算机科学家和商学院学生。第一批在大学期间使用创客空间的毕业生向我们反馈，作为卡内基梅隆大学的学生，他们觉得在创客空间中的经历在他们人生经验中很重要。创客空间给予他们技能，为他们提供机会，否则他们不会有这种体验。

刘锦山：这是非常了不起的成就，因为中国大陆和美国的教育理念、模式可能有些不同，比如我们传统上比较强调知识的灌输、吸收，西方可能比较强调学生的自主学习、动手能力、团队协作。因此，体现在创客空间上，我有一点担心。当然，大陆高校的创客空间近两三年也刚刚开始，我希望效果也能达到像贵馆那样的水平。

Jinshan Liu: I think that it is a fantastic achievement. I'm a little worried about development of makerspace in China as educational ideas and models between China and US have differences. Chinese educational ideas emphasize indoctrination of knowledge, but American educational philosophies focus on autonomous learning ability, hands on ability and team cooperation ability.

Makerspces sprang up in academic libraries of Mainland China in the past two or three years. I really want to learn from your experiences and I hope that Chinese libraries’ makerspces could get good achievement.

Keith Webster: Thank you!

基思·韦伯斯特：谢谢！

刘锦山：您对我们中国大陆的图书馆同行关于创客空间的建设活动有哪些建议和意见？

Jinshan Liu: What is your suggestion on makerspace developed by libraries of mainland China?

Keith Webster: Firstly, I think they need to understand and think what makerspace would be used for, therefore what sorts of equipments and programs that they couldn’t do it. Secondly, I think that they need to understand how makerspace fits with mission of library. If the library is felt by community as a place for books and quiet study, then a makerspace would require a lot of explanation. But I think library continuously change, and this is another part of the journey on the change. In 5 to 10 years from now, we may be talk about completely different trend for libraries, and we will wonder why we so excited about makerspaces because the other exciting things in front of us.

基思·韦伯斯特：第一，我认为他们需要了解创客空间是为谁而服务，哪些设备或是项目是不需要购买或是开展的。第二，我认为他们应该了解创客空间应该与图书馆的使命相结合。如果社区公众觉着图书馆是一个可以看书、可以安静学习的地方，那么开展创客空间需要做出大量的解释。我认为图书馆一直在不断变化，创客空间就是这种变化中的一个部分。五到十年后，我们可能会谈论图书馆的不同发展趋势，那时我们眼前又是另一种新的趋势，我们将会知道我们对创客空间感到如此兴奋的原因。

刘锦山：最后，请您谈谈参加这次会议的感受。

Jinshan Liu: Lastly, could you talk about your feelings of attending ITIE2016 conference？

Keith Webster:I think it is a huge success. We have wonderful presentations and we have engaged audiences for good questions. I hope that this is the beginning of conversation between those of us from the United States and Europe and colleagues of China. Today, we live a global community and the important thing is that we learn from each other. I feel so excited about what I see here. I am sure that will be tremendous excited as we see maker movements grow in your country.

基思·韦伯斯特：我认为这次会议很成功。在这里，我听到了很有意义的演讲，看到了积极讨论问题的观众。我希望这是中国、美国和欧洲的同行开展对话的一个开端。在当今全球化背景下，最重要的是我们可以相互学习。在这里看到的一切都会让我感到激动。我看到了中国创客运动在迅速发展，这是最为高兴的。

刘锦山：非常感谢！

Jinshan Liu: Thank you very much!